Showing posts with label Marines. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Marines. Show all posts
Sunday, April 3, 2011
Dread Calgar Walks!
I couldn't get Calgar's torso bit to fit even after cutting off his cape. The arms fit rather nicely once some of the bolter feeds where dremeled off..
Monday, March 28, 2011
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus
Killinger: The phrase is, 'Sic semper tyrannis'; you just said, 'Always faithful terrible lizard.'
21: I did? Cool.
This is a Space Marine post; sorry, no dinosaurs.
Spaguatyrine kicked my Marine army's ass in the second round of the Saltare tournament last Saturday. Some of it was army list; some of it was failing three pin tests in a row and my entire second turn consisting of me firing one las cannon. I was running a variant of my double captain army with one of the captains swapped for a librarian. Spag runs a dynamic Wolf army, and my marines aren't built to handle the one, two, three punch of longfangs, thunderwolves, and wolf scouts. Spag and I talked over things I could do to make the army better. He pointed out that I don't have any big melee threats in my army. It's hard to put a good melee threat into vanilla marines without going TH/SS termies, and that can really change up the composition of my army.
I'm going to dump the Sternguard out of the list. I loved them, then I hated them, then I loved them again, and now I'm back to hate. They can be very good and deal with lots of threats, but one squad can't be everywhere at once. They are also very vulnerable to counterattacks. They can jump out an kill something really nasty, and then die to whatever is left over. If that nasty thing is Fateweaver or the Nightbringer it's a good trade; anything else, not so much.
I'm also going to drop the Las-Plas Razors. This is a suggestion Spag made due to their high point cost. Thinking about it more; their ratio of threat to survivability is too high. Essentially a very scary weapon load out on a very flimsy tank. The two I have are fire magnets, and that's a bad thing for what's holding 50% of my scoring troops.
The polish is wearing of the combi-melta relic blade Captain as well. He's a good cheap utility HQ, but he can't fight hordes on his own with only his 3+ armor save. He needs to pick up artificer armor to do that, but I don't think the expense makes him cost effective anymore. Plus the models are getting converted back to Honor Guard for my counts-as Grey Knights army.
I'm going to keep the tac squad composition the same. One ten man and two five man squads works well for 1500 points. I'm going to put the two five man units in basic heavy bolter razorbacks. It takes aways some high ST-low AP firepower from the list, but will hopefully put them lower on other players' target priority lists.
I love my Rifleman dreads. They provide a very consistent long-range punch to the army, but they die as soon as anything gets close. Spag thinks I should only run one of the arms as TL autocannons, and keep the other as a DCCW. That would really cut into the ranged firepower of my list. I then thought about running 2 Ironclad dreads to support the two Rifleman. Ironclads are something out of the codex that I never got around to trying out. I though about it a little more and came back around to Spag's suggestion. His way was cheaper, allowing me to spend more points elsewhere.
So I've ended up with two possible 1500pt lists:
List 1:
Master of the Forge w/ Conversion Beamer
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannon
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannon
21: I did? Cool.
This is a Space Marine post; sorry, no dinosaurs.
Spaguatyrine kicked my Marine army's ass in the second round of the Saltare tournament last Saturday. Some of it was army list; some of it was failing three pin tests in a row and my entire second turn consisting of me firing one las cannon. I was running a variant of my double captain army with one of the captains swapped for a librarian. Spag runs a dynamic Wolf army, and my marines aren't built to handle the one, two, three punch of longfangs, thunderwolves, and wolf scouts. Spag and I talked over things I could do to make the army better. He pointed out that I don't have any big melee threats in my army. It's hard to put a good melee threat into vanilla marines without going TH/SS termies, and that can really change up the composition of my army.
I'm going to dump the Sternguard out of the list. I loved them, then I hated them, then I loved them again, and now I'm back to hate. They can be very good and deal with lots of threats, but one squad can't be everywhere at once. They are also very vulnerable to counterattacks. They can jump out an kill something really nasty, and then die to whatever is left over. If that nasty thing is Fateweaver or the Nightbringer it's a good trade; anything else, not so much.
I'm also going to drop the Las-Plas Razors. This is a suggestion Spag made due to their high point cost. Thinking about it more; their ratio of threat to survivability is too high. Essentially a very scary weapon load out on a very flimsy tank. The two I have are fire magnets, and that's a bad thing for what's holding 50% of my scoring troops.
The polish is wearing of the combi-melta relic blade Captain as well. He's a good cheap utility HQ, but he can't fight hordes on his own with only his 3+ armor save. He needs to pick up artificer armor to do that, but I don't think the expense makes him cost effective anymore. Plus the models are getting converted back to Honor Guard for my counts-as Grey Knights army.
I'm going to keep the tac squad composition the same. One ten man and two five man squads works well for 1500 points. I'm going to put the two five man units in basic heavy bolter razorbacks. It takes aways some high ST-low AP firepower from the list, but will hopefully put them lower on other players' target priority lists.
I love my Rifleman dreads. They provide a very consistent long-range punch to the army, but they die as soon as anything gets close. Spag thinks I should only run one of the arms as TL autocannons, and keep the other as a DCCW. That would really cut into the ranged firepower of my list. I then thought about running 2 Ironclad dreads to support the two Rifleman. Ironclads are something out of the codex that I never got around to trying out. I though about it a little more and came back around to Spag's suggestion. His way was cheaper, allowing me to spend more points elsewhere.
So I've ended up with two possible 1500pt lists:
List 1:
Master of the Forge w/ Conversion Beamer
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannon
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannon
Ironclad Dreadnought w/ 2x hunter killer missles,
Ironclad Dreadnought w/ 2x hunter killer missles,10x Tactical Marines w/ Powerfist, meltagun, multi-melta, Rhino
5x Tactical Marines w/ combi-melta Razorback
5x Tactical Marines w/ combi-melta Razorback
Land Speeder w/ multi-melta, heavy-flamer
Land Speeder w/ multi-melta, heavy-flamer
5x Devastators w/ 4x missie launchers
MoF hangs out with the devi's in some 3+ cover ruins. There's a few points left over on this one.
List 2:
Master of the Forge w/ Conversion Beamer
Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon
Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon
Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon
Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon
10x Tactical Marines w/ Powerfist, meltagun, multi-melta, Rhino
5x Tactical Marines w/ combi-melta Razorback
5x Tactical Marines w/ combi-melta Razorback
Land Speeder w/ multi-melta, heavy-flamer
Land Speeder w/ multi-melta, heavy-flamer
5x Devastators w/ 4x missie launchers
1500 points on the dot.
All those DCCW pose a significant close in threat. Dreadnoughts are not very good against MC's in close combat, but all that downrange S7 and S8 should help kill those before they get to assault range. My thoughts for going to 2000 pts involves adding a Land Raider with another embarked Tactical squad. With a generic squad inside, the land raider should blend into all those dreadnoughts for target priority. Plus more shots at the land raider means fewer shots at the more destructible dreadnoughts.
Thoughts?
Monday, March 14, 2011
It isn't easy being vannilla
Another divergent marine chapter codex is about to be released, and poor Codex Space Marines are left wondering why they are still following the teachings of that hack Guiliman. It seams that when you break the rules you get some pretty cool toys.
I don't think that the other marine codecies are more than marginally better than stock Astartes, but their specialization lends to more competitive 5th edition armies. Each chapter codex has a focus, and if your marine army shares that same focus, you loose nothing by switching codecies. Running divergent chapters should be a trade-off, not a boon. As it is, there is no appreciable loss from changing your light-mech Codex Marine army to Blood Angels. You get essentially the same stats and available units, and also gain the benefits of being a Blood Angel. The points are different, but not substantially so. The options are not vanilla vs chocolate vs strawberry; its vannilla vs choclate-vannilla swirl vs strawberry-vannilla swirl.
Compare troop options between Wolves, Blood Angels, and Ultras. For my Ultras I have to take ten men to get a special and heavy weapon. Most of the time those two weapons are mutually exclusive in their use. The other two chapters can take ten men and get two specials that can be used together. Essentially trading duality for redundancy. That seems like a fair trade, but it's not.
There's a lot of talk about duality in 40k and its benefits. I'd rather take a redundant single purpose unit than a unreliable dual purpose unit. The limited role of the single purpose unit can always be covered by another redundant single purpose unit that fills the opposite role. Those types of units are not lacking in the divergent chapter codex's.
On top of taking the unfair trade, the Wolves and Blood Angels also get their army wide rules. They only have to give up Combat Tactics( a situationally useful rule) in return. You've lost some codex marine traits in the process, but never anything that makes the choice remotely hard.
I think that the divergent chapters should not get the basic marine stat line by default. They should have one stat take a penalty with the according adjustment in cost. This makes being a codex marine mean something as they would have the best overall stats but the least specialized rules and equipment.
I think Wolves should get -1 to BS to all units except Long Fangs and the units that already have BS3. Wolves are primarily a melee army, and having them less capable at ranged combat balances all their CC abilities and units
For Blood Angels I'd like to see -2 to leadership across the whole list. This way they are little less dependable than marines, and their ability to occasionally become fearless mean a little more.
Maybe I'm being jealous of the Stormraven, Dread Knight, and Thunderwolves, but vanilla is a flavor! To be vanilla doesn't mean to be completely void of flavor. Codex Marines needs something to set it apart from all the other Marine chapters, and that is currently lacking in 5th edition.
I don't think that the other marine codecies are more than marginally better than stock Astartes, but their specialization lends to more competitive 5th edition armies. Each chapter codex has a focus, and if your marine army shares that same focus, you loose nothing by switching codecies. Running divergent chapters should be a trade-off, not a boon. As it is, there is no appreciable loss from changing your light-mech Codex Marine army to Blood Angels. You get essentially the same stats and available units, and also gain the benefits of being a Blood Angel. The points are different, but not substantially so. The options are not vanilla vs chocolate vs strawberry; its vannilla vs choclate-vannilla swirl vs strawberry-vannilla swirl.
Compare troop options between Wolves, Blood Angels, and Ultras. For my Ultras I have to take ten men to get a special and heavy weapon. Most of the time those two weapons are mutually exclusive in their use. The other two chapters can take ten men and get two specials that can be used together. Essentially trading duality for redundancy. That seems like a fair trade, but it's not.
There's a lot of talk about duality in 40k and its benefits. I'd rather take a redundant single purpose unit than a unreliable dual purpose unit. The limited role of the single purpose unit can always be covered by another redundant single purpose unit that fills the opposite role. Those types of units are not lacking in the divergent chapter codex's.
On top of taking the unfair trade, the Wolves and Blood Angels also get their army wide rules. They only have to give up Combat Tactics( a situationally useful rule) in return. You've lost some codex marine traits in the process, but never anything that makes the choice remotely hard.
I think that the divergent chapters should not get the basic marine stat line by default. They should have one stat take a penalty with the according adjustment in cost. This makes being a codex marine mean something as they would have the best overall stats but the least specialized rules and equipment.
I think Wolves should get -1 to BS to all units except Long Fangs and the units that already have BS3. Wolves are primarily a melee army, and having them less capable at ranged combat balances all their CC abilities and units
For Blood Angels I'd like to see -2 to leadership across the whole list. This way they are little less dependable than marines, and their ability to occasionally become fearless mean a little more.
Maybe I'm being jealous of the Stormraven, Dread Knight, and Thunderwolves, but vanilla is a flavor! To be vanilla doesn't mean to be completely void of flavor. Codex Marines needs something to set it apart from all the other Marine chapters, and that is currently lacking in 5th edition.
Friday, February 11, 2011
Transform and Roll Out!
I was tentatively committed to doing an Ultramarines Honor Guard counts as Grey Knights army. Mostly I wanted an excuse to buy some Stormravens. Though now GK's apparently can take Optimus Prime as a heavy support choice.
There's no passing that up.
There's no passing that up.
Wednesday, February 2, 2011
Army of Two
Ever since my recent game with Sandwyrm, I've been thinking of ways to improve my neglected Ultramarines army. It's led me to put together a new 1500 point list for the Hivefleet Indy tournament this weekend. So the new list looks like this:
Captain w/combi-melta and relic blade
Captain w/combi-melta and relic blade
9 Man Sterngaurd squad w/ 2x combi-melta and rhino
Dreadnought w/2x twin -linked autocannons
Dreadnought w/2x twin -linked autocannons10 Man Tactical Squad w/meltagun, missile launcher, and rhino
5 Man TacticalSquad w/combi-melta and las-plas razorback
5 Man TacticalSquad w/combi-melta and las-plas razorbackLandSpeeder w/heavy flamer and multi-melta
LandSpeeder w/heavy flamer and multi-meltaMy usual combo of Shrike+TH/SS Termies is a bit too expensive for 1500. My other usual choice of HQ, a Librarian, hasn't been working out too effectively for me. His abilities are nice, but he can't save his squad in HtH combat, and his powers are not useful if every match up. So I decided to go with two captains that can beat face 100 percent of the time, versus a librarian that can give me a tactical advantage 50 percent of the time.
I tried it out last Saturday against Dodger3's demons. The Sterngaurd did well, they sacrificed themselves to take down Fateweaver with poisoned bolter fire. The captains performed even better. They took down 7 Bloodcrushers in melee combat with a little supporting fire to soften them up first. I ended up loosing the game to a couple of bad rolls at the end. It didn't help that I wasted my dreadnoughts and speeders by getting them too close.
I think it's a solid list. I'm debating whether to cut a few guys from the Sterngaurd squad to afford a few more upgrades. Namely, more combi-meltas for the Sterngaurd, and a power fist for the 10 man tactical squad sergeant. I do like being able to fire 18 shots of special issue bolter ammo though.
Monday, May 3, 2010
May 1st Tournament Highlights
I took 4th place in the G2D4 tournament last Saturday. I won my first game against Dark Eldar. Lost my second game against Scott's Salamanders, and won my third game against Black Templars. I had some horrid dice rolling in the second game. My speeders failed to kill a Land Raider at point blank range two turns in a row, and I failed 3 out of 7 2+ Terminator saves.
I like how my army performed overall. I think I need to find a way to fit in two more land speeders. If I loose the Predator and find 50 more points I can do it. It's either that or take them out of the list completely. They just offer up to much utility to do that. It may be worth it to just swap out the Predator 1 for 1 with another speeder.
I had fun. It's been a while since I left a tournament wanting to play more 40k instead of wanting to toss my army into a dumpster.
Here are some picks from the tournament:
Thursday, April 29, 2010
INSPIRATION!
This morning before work, I watched the new Halo: Reach live action commercial. I then watched the ones for Halo 3 and ODST. They are all awesome, and proof that a Halo movie NEEDS to get made.
So I was thinking about Halo and remembered I had bought a bunch of Haloclix minis when that game had come out. I never played a game of it, and haven't had of much of a use for them. I do have a lot of them, and getting more would be easy since the game never sold well and you can get them at bargain bin prices.
I also was thinking about Red vs Blue. Well, my Ultras are blue. Blood Angels are red...
What I'm thinking would not be tournament legal in any sense, but all those clix minis are just sitting in a box in my closet...
Marines -> Spartans
Sanguine Guard/Assault Marines -> Allied Elites
Scouts -> UNSC Marines
Death Company => ODST troops
Razorbacks/Baal Predators -> Warthogs
Raven Gunships -> Orca Dropships
Probably wouldn't be very competitive either, but it would be really cool.
So I was thinking about Halo and remembered I had bought a bunch of Haloclix minis when that game had come out. I never played a game of it, and haven't had of much of a use for them. I do have a lot of them, and getting more would be easy since the game never sold well and you can get them at bargain bin prices.
I also was thinking about Red vs Blue. Well, my Ultras are blue. Blood Angels are red...
What I'm thinking would not be tournament legal in any sense, but all those clix minis are just sitting in a box in my closet...
Marines -> Spartans
Sanguine Guard/Assault Marines -> Allied Elites
Scouts -> UNSC Marines
Death Company => ODST troops
Razorbacks/Baal Predators -> Warthogs
Raven Gunships -> Orca Dropships
Probably wouldn't be very competitive either, but it would be really cool.
Sunday, April 25, 2010
The Grand Experiment (Marines vs Sisters 1500)
I was recently involved in and argument with a G2D4 regular on their forums over the cost of Witch Hunter Rhinos and Immolators. The whole argument escalated in a silly fashion, but resulted in the gauntlet being thrown down. See the whole argument here. Basically, the set up was this: The Witch Hunter player would build two armies, one with codex costs for dedicated transports and one with Imperial Armor costs. He would play two games against my Marines and see if the point change made much of a difference.
The intent was to play two games, but we only got the first game in with the standard codex costs. There was a third 40k player at G2D4 who wanted to play, so we canceled the second round in favor letting him get a game in.
The Lists:
Sisters 1500
HQ: Canoness (1#, 135 Pts)
1 Canoness @ 135 Pts
Book of St. Lucius; Jump Pack; Mantle of Ophelia; Melta Bombs; Inferno Pistol (x1); Blessed Weapon
1 Mantle of Ophelia @ [15] Pts
1 Blessed Weapon @ [30] Pts
Elite: Celestian Squad (7#, 182 Pts)
5 Celestian Squad @ 182 Pts
Bolter (x4); Multi-Melta
1 Sister Superior @ [13] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [89] Pts
Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked MultiMelta
Elite: Celestian Squad (7#, 182 Pts)
5 Celestian Squad @ 182 Pts
Bolter (x4); Multi-Melta
1 Sister Superior @ [13] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [89] Pts
Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked MultiMelta
Troops: Battle Sisters Squad (10#, 161 Pts)
9 Battle Sisters Squad @ 161 Pts
Bolter (x7); Meltagun (x1); Heavy Flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [40] Pts Close Combat Weapon (x1); Plasma Pistol (x1)
Troops: Battle Sisters Squad (10#, 152 Pts)
9 Battle Sisters Squad @ 152 Pts
Bolter (x7); Flamer (x1); Heavy Flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [35] Pts Bolt Pistol (x1); Brazier of Holy Fire (x1)
Troops: Battle Sisters Squad (11#, 213 Pts)
9 Battle Sisters Squad @ 213 Pts
Bolter (x7); Meltagun (x2); Mount in Rhino
1 Rhino @ [54] Pts
Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [40] Pts Close Combat Weapon (x1); Plasma Pistol (x1)
Exorcist (1#, 139 Pts)
1 Exorcist @ 139 Pts
Exorcist Missile Launcher; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
Heavy Support: Exorcist (1#, 139 Pts)
1 Exorcist @ 139 Pts
Exorcist Missile Launcher; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
Heavy Support: Retributor Squad (10#, 196 Pts)
9 Retributor Squad @ 196 Pts
Bolter (x5); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [37] Pts Auspex; Storm Bolter
Marines 1500
Librarian( Null Zone, Avenger )
5x Sterngaurd w/3x combi-melta, Heavy Bolter Razorback.
Dreadnaught W/ 2x TL Autocannon
Dreadnaught W/ 2x TL Autocannon
10x Tactical Squad w/flamer, missile launcher, Rhino
10x Tactical Squad w/flamer, missile launcher, Rhino
5x Tactical Sqad W/ Lascannon and TL plasma gun Razorback
5x Tactical Sqad W/ Lascannon and TL plasma gun Razorback
2x Speeders W/Heavy Flamer, Multi Melta
Predator W/Autocannon, Heavy Boltor Sponsons
If you're curious, switching to the IA costs would have saved him 130 points.
Turn 1:
We rolled up Capture and Control with standard deployment. I got first turn. I put my Rhinos on my right flank. The Sterngaurd and Predator took the left flank, and everything else went to the center. My Speeders where held in reserve. He left all his vehicles in reserve and deployed all but one sister squad on foot. 2 sisters squads where lined up in front of the Retributor squad, and the Celestians guarded his flanks.
Heres what it looked like after my first move:
I concentrated my fire on the front rank of sisters and killed 3 of them. I loosed a lascannon off one of my Razorbacks to return fire.
Turn 2.
I got my speeders in, they nearly mishapped into the ruins on his side of the table.
I pressed the rhinos forward, and dumped my Sterngaurd out infront of his front rank of sisters.
I killed a few more sisters from the front rank squad, but not enough. On his turn he got two of his Immos and one Exorcist from reserve. The Immos knocked out both of my rhinos. The explosion from the first one took 4 marines with it. The Exorcist took out one speeder and stuned the other one. Combined fire from the rest of his army wiped out the Sterngaurd.
Sterngaurd all gone:
Turn 3:
The remnants of my two ten man tac squads climbed through the wreckage of the dead rhinos and take on the Celestians on the right flank. My Dakka Dreads knock the MM off one Immo and destroy the other. I back one of my razorbacks into the forest by my objective and immobilize it. The Sterngaurd's Razorback tries to tank shock the sissters off their objective, but a meltagun sister immobilizes it with Death or Glory. The rest of his army comes on, and I loose some marines on the left, the mobile las-plas razorback, and the Predator.
Turn 4:
I move up my Dreads and assault the weaponless immo. One of the dreads kills his HQ. I also assault the remainder of his front line sister squad with the last guy from the destroyed las-plas Razorback. On his turn he finishes off the oh so useful speeders, and kills one of my dreads.
Turn 5:
I finally finish off the last of the front line sister squad, but I'm finally wiped out of the two assaults I was engaged in. He tries to kill my sterngaurd's razorback and remaining dread, but I make my cover saves.
How it looked at the end:
Results:
Marine win. My razorback is contesting his objective by .001 inch. I call it a draw anyway; I don't think immobile vehicles should be allowed to contest.
It would be hard to argue that 130 more points wouldn't have made a difference in such a close game. Another Celestian squad in an immo would have probably allowed him to table me outright. Though I was rolling true to form on my 3+ armor saves. I will agree with John that sisters should be getting all the free upgrades that the marines get. It gives the marines a lot of tactical flexibility to just have grenades and smoke and searchlights. On the other hand, I would gladly give up all those freebies to give my Marines faith :)
Moral of the story: Sisters need a new codex so we can stop arguing about what the fair cost of their transports should be.
The intent was to play two games, but we only got the first game in with the standard codex costs. There was a third 40k player at G2D4 who wanted to play, so we canceled the second round in favor letting him get a game in.
The Lists:
Sisters 1500
HQ: Canoness (1#, 135 Pts)
1 Canoness @ 135 Pts
Book of St. Lucius; Jump Pack; Mantle of Ophelia; Melta Bombs; Inferno Pistol (x1); Blessed Weapon
1 Mantle of Ophelia @ [15] Pts
1 Blessed Weapon @ [30] Pts
Elite: Celestian Squad (7#, 182 Pts)
5 Celestian Squad @ 182 Pts
Bolter (x4); Multi-Melta
1 Sister Superior @ [13] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [89] Pts
Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked MultiMelta
Elite: Celestian Squad (7#, 182 Pts)
5 Celestian Squad @ 182 Pts
Bolter (x4); Multi-Melta
1 Sister Superior @ [13] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [89] Pts
Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked MultiMelta
Troops: Battle Sisters Squad (10#, 161 Pts)
9 Battle Sisters Squad @ 161 Pts
Bolter (x7); Meltagun (x1); Heavy Flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [40] Pts Close Combat Weapon (x1); Plasma Pistol (x1)
Troops: Battle Sisters Squad (10#, 152 Pts)
9 Battle Sisters Squad @ 152 Pts
Bolter (x7); Flamer (x1); Heavy Flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [35] Pts Bolt Pistol (x1); Brazier of Holy Fire (x1)
Troops: Battle Sisters Squad (11#, 213 Pts)
9 Battle Sisters Squad @ 213 Pts
Bolter (x7); Meltagun (x2); Mount in Rhino
1 Rhino @ [54] Pts
Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [40] Pts Close Combat Weapon (x1); Plasma Pistol (x1)
Exorcist (1#, 139 Pts)
1 Exorcist @ 139 Pts
Exorcist Missile Launcher; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
Heavy Support: Exorcist (1#, 139 Pts)
1 Exorcist @ 139 Pts
Exorcist Missile Launcher; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
Heavy Support: Retributor Squad (10#, 196 Pts)
9 Retributor Squad @ 196 Pts
Bolter (x5); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [37] Pts Auspex; Storm Bolter
Marines 1500
Librarian( Null Zone, Avenger )
5x Sterngaurd w/3x combi-melta, Heavy Bolter Razorback.
Dreadnaught W/ 2x TL Autocannon
Dreadnaught W/ 2x TL Autocannon
10x Tactical Squad w/flamer, missile launcher, Rhino
10x Tactical Squad w/flamer, missile launcher, Rhino
5x Tactical Sqad W/ Lascannon and TL plasma gun Razorback
5x Tactical Sqad W/ Lascannon and TL plasma gun Razorback
2x Speeders W/Heavy Flamer, Multi Melta
Predator W/Autocannon, Heavy Boltor Sponsons
If you're curious, switching to the IA costs would have saved him 130 points.
Turn 1:
We rolled up Capture and Control with standard deployment. I got first turn. I put my Rhinos on my right flank. The Sterngaurd and Predator took the left flank, and everything else went to the center. My Speeders where held in reserve. He left all his vehicles in reserve and deployed all but one sister squad on foot. 2 sisters squads where lined up in front of the Retributor squad, and the Celestians guarded his flanks.
Heres what it looked like after my first move:
I concentrated my fire on the front rank of sisters and killed 3 of them. I loosed a lascannon off one of my Razorbacks to return fire.
Turn 2.
I got my speeders in, they nearly mishapped into the ruins on his side of the table.
I pressed the rhinos forward, and dumped my Sterngaurd out infront of his front rank of sisters.
I killed a few more sisters from the front rank squad, but not enough. On his turn he got two of his Immos and one Exorcist from reserve. The Immos knocked out both of my rhinos. The explosion from the first one took 4 marines with it. The Exorcist took out one speeder and stuned the other one. Combined fire from the rest of his army wiped out the Sterngaurd.
Sterngaurd all gone:
Turn 3:
The remnants of my two ten man tac squads climbed through the wreckage of the dead rhinos and take on the Celestians on the right flank. My Dakka Dreads knock the MM off one Immo and destroy the other. I back one of my razorbacks into the forest by my objective and immobilize it. The Sterngaurd's Razorback tries to tank shock the sissters off their objective, but a meltagun sister immobilizes it with Death or Glory. The rest of his army comes on, and I loose some marines on the left, the mobile las-plas razorback, and the Predator.
Turn 4:
I move up my Dreads and assault the weaponless immo. One of the dreads kills his HQ. I also assault the remainder of his front line sister squad with the last guy from the destroyed las-plas Razorback. On his turn he finishes off the oh so useful speeders, and kills one of my dreads.
Turn 5:
I finally finish off the last of the front line sister squad, but I'm finally wiped out of the two assaults I was engaged in. He tries to kill my sterngaurd's razorback and remaining dread, but I make my cover saves.
How it looked at the end:
Results:
Marine win. My razorback is contesting his objective by .001 inch. I call it a draw anyway; I don't think immobile vehicles should be allowed to contest.
It would be hard to argue that 130 more points wouldn't have made a difference in such a close game. Another Celestian squad in an immo would have probably allowed him to table me outright. Though I was rolling true to form on my 3+ armor saves. I will agree with John that sisters should be getting all the free upgrades that the marines get. It gives the marines a lot of tactical flexibility to just have grenades and smoke and searchlights. On the other hand, I would gladly give up all those freebies to give my Marines faith :)
Moral of the story: Sisters need a new codex so we can stop arguing about what the fair cost of their transports should be.
Wednesday, April 21, 2010
Evolution of a Space Marine Army
My vanilla marine army has changed significantly since I re-entered 40k at the end of 4th Edition. I had been out of 40k for about 5 years; 5 years spent mostly playing Warmachine. Warmachine was getting crushed under its own rules bloat, and Privateer Press seemed too focused on other endeavors to fix the problems. I started longing for the old familiarities of my first war-game. The first 5th edition rumors were flying around, and I liked what I was hearing. I still had my old Eldar army, but didn’t feel like playing it. The new codex rendered most of what I owned uncompetitive, and I didn’t want to build a 4e Eldar army to have to rebuild it a few months later for 5e. Generally though, marine armies handle edition changes fairly intact. As long as I didn’t build an army around the units and abilities that the rumors said where getting nerfed, I figured I could build a basic marine army and be fine.
So, I started collecting Marines. I focused on a core of Tactical Marines, specifically 6 man Las-Plas. I also had this notion that Apocalypse was cool, and was collecting towards a full battle company. 4x Missile Devastator squads were also a common factor in my lists. My typical 4e list:
Captain w/PF, Iron Halo Storm bolter
Venerable Dread w/Las Cannon, Heavy Flamer
4x 6 Man Las-Plas Squad
10 Man Assault Squad
10 Man Devastator Squad w/4x Missile
Vindicator
Total battle-force garbage. I was playing in an environment with other new players, so my games went fairly well despite my poor list building skills.
5th Edition came out and the first thing that occurred to me was I needed more melta and vehicles. The Venerable dreadnaught became two MM dreads, and I started running MM/HF speeders. About this time I found out about G2D4 and started playing there. I got better competition and more games than at the Danger Room in Anderson. 5th edition was still new and even the G2D4 players were figuring out what worked and didn’t work in the new edition. I think I was a little ahead of the curve based on running significantly more melta weapons than other players.
The new marine dex came out soon after. I didn’t really know what to do with it at first. I had banked on Honor Guard being the new hotness and had converted a full squad of them up. Unfortunately they turned out to be a big expensive boondoggle. The core of my army shifted to 3 ten man tactical squads with Lascannons and melta guns. My HQ tended to be a Master with twin LC’s. I Experimented with drop pods briefly and was unimpressed. I still didn’t have an impressive win factor. I tied for most of my games. I started reading Stelek’s dakka posts and blog at this point, and as a result rushed to convert some Sterngaurd with combi-meltas. G2D4 regulars where still light on good 5e armor killing weapons, so I started running 2 or 3 raider lists. At first they were just filled with Tac Squads camping out, and later to deliver Assault Terminators. It was a brick army and I got quickly frustrated with my raiders getting popped by single lascannon shots on the first turn. This gave rise to the light mech marine build that has been the core of my lists up to the present day. Its first incarnation was for a G2D4 tournament:
Sicarius
5x Sterngaurd W/5 combi-meltas, Razorback
2x Full Tac Squads W/Melta, Multi-Melta, Rhino
Full Scout Sqaud W/Cammo-cloaks, sniper rifles
2x MM/HF Speeders
2x MM Attack Bikes
2x Whirlwinds
Sicarius was overpriced, but his abilities helped at least once in every game. I finished with middle of the pack tournament results. By the next tournament Sicarius had been replaced by a Fusion Beamer Master of the Forge, the attack bikes where gone, and I added 2 MM dreadnaughts. Sill finished with middle of the pack results. I really like playing the army, even though I couldn’t hit with a melta to save my life, and kill points was almost an auto loose. My army usually had 12 or 13 kill points. Tell me how losing a game where I killed 75% of my opponents army to only loosing 50% my own is fair? Eventually the MoF was swapped out for a Librarian and the scouts where dropped for a third dread and another speeder. G2D4 regulars had started meching up, so the Whirlwinds were swapped out for AC/HB Predators.
Now the list that will live in infamy:
Librarian
3x AC/AC Dreadnaughts
2x Full Tac Squads W/Flamer, Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta, Rhino
Full Tac Sqad W/Melta, Lascannon, Combi-Melta, Razorback
3x MM/HF Speeders
2x AC/HB Predators
I took this list to a tournament at the Greenwood Game Preserve. I finished last. I had bad luck with my meltas, and every scenario was primarily or secondarily determined by Kill Points. As an added bonus, my three dreadnaughts got my comp scores tanked. I did not have fun, and worked on my Eldar exclusively for a few months after that. I didn’t even want to look at my Marines. I dragged them out for one G2D4 tournament during that time. I did average. I lost my first game in that tournament against the eventual winner. It was Kill Points and another instance of killing as much or more of my opponents army, but not hitting the right KP spread.
Now there’s another G2D4 tournament on May 1st. It’s a 1750 point tournament, so I had to rethink my list a little. I decided on using Shrike with 5 Assault Terminators . This required me to drop one of my Dreadnaughts. I also added a shooty command squad to ride in my razor back. I tried the army out and had mixed results. I decided that I really need some longer ranged anti-tank, so I went back to the drawing board and this is what I came up with:
Shrike
Command squad w/ 2 melta guns, 2 power weapons, Las-Plas Razorback
5 TH/SS Terminators
2x AC/AC Dreadnaughts
2x Full Tac Squads W/Flamer, Lascannon, Combi-Melta, Rhino
5 Man Tack Squad W/Combi-Melta, Las-Plas Razorback
2x MM/HF Speeders
AC/HB Predator
The free multi meltas in my tac squads where not doing anything for me. You can’t move the rhinos and shoot them, and you don’t want the things that they need to kill to get anywhere near 12 inches of your tac squad. I could have gone with missiles, but they are only ever going to glance armor 14. That brought me back to the trusty old lascannon. I don’t have to rely on my speeders to hunt the big armor now; I can use the two razorbacks and the Rhino lascannon bunkers to threaten land raiders and lemun russ tanks earlier and with better volume of fire. Shrike and the Terminators are there to draw fire from my weaker small units. The Command squad is meant as a countercharge unit. While not very good against dedicated CC units, they can help turn back anything else that gets too close to the core of my army.
Overall this list keeps the good close range anti-tank and long range light armor busting of my old list and adds some long range anti tank and close combat problem solvers. I think it solves some of the problems my lists have had, and I have high hopes for it. Still has 15 KP though.
So, I started collecting Marines. I focused on a core of Tactical Marines, specifically 6 man Las-Plas. I also had this notion that Apocalypse was cool, and was collecting towards a full battle company. 4x Missile Devastator squads were also a common factor in my lists. My typical 4e list:
Captain w/PF, Iron Halo Storm bolter
Venerable Dread w/Las Cannon, Heavy Flamer
4x 6 Man Las-Plas Squad
10 Man Assault Squad
10 Man Devastator Squad w/4x Missile
Vindicator
Total battle-force garbage. I was playing in an environment with other new players, so my games went fairly well despite my poor list building skills.
5th Edition came out and the first thing that occurred to me was I needed more melta and vehicles. The Venerable dreadnaught became two MM dreads, and I started running MM/HF speeders. About this time I found out about G2D4 and started playing there. I got better competition and more games than at the Danger Room in Anderson. 5th edition was still new and even the G2D4 players were figuring out what worked and didn’t work in the new edition. I think I was a little ahead of the curve based on running significantly more melta weapons than other players.
The new marine dex came out soon after. I didn’t really know what to do with it at first. I had banked on Honor Guard being the new hotness and had converted a full squad of them up. Unfortunately they turned out to be a big expensive boondoggle. The core of my army shifted to 3 ten man tactical squads with Lascannons and melta guns. My HQ tended to be a Master with twin LC’s. I Experimented with drop pods briefly and was unimpressed. I still didn’t have an impressive win factor. I tied for most of my games. I started reading Stelek’s dakka posts and blog at this point, and as a result rushed to convert some Sterngaurd with combi-meltas. G2D4 regulars where still light on good 5e armor killing weapons, so I started running 2 or 3 raider lists. At first they were just filled with Tac Squads camping out, and later to deliver Assault Terminators. It was a brick army and I got quickly frustrated with my raiders getting popped by single lascannon shots on the first turn. This gave rise to the light mech marine build that has been the core of my lists up to the present day. Its first incarnation was for a G2D4 tournament:
Sicarius
5x Sterngaurd W/5 combi-meltas, Razorback
2x Full Tac Squads W/Melta, Multi-Melta, Rhino
Full Scout Sqaud W/Cammo-cloaks, sniper rifles
2x MM/HF Speeders
2x MM Attack Bikes
2x Whirlwinds
Sicarius was overpriced, but his abilities helped at least once in every game. I finished with middle of the pack tournament results. By the next tournament Sicarius had been replaced by a Fusion Beamer Master of the Forge, the attack bikes where gone, and I added 2 MM dreadnaughts. Sill finished with middle of the pack results. I really like playing the army, even though I couldn’t hit with a melta to save my life, and kill points was almost an auto loose. My army usually had 12 or 13 kill points. Tell me how losing a game where I killed 75% of my opponents army to only loosing 50% my own is fair? Eventually the MoF was swapped out for a Librarian and the scouts where dropped for a third dread and another speeder. G2D4 regulars had started meching up, so the Whirlwinds were swapped out for AC/HB Predators.
Now the list that will live in infamy:
Librarian
3x AC/AC Dreadnaughts
2x Full Tac Squads W/Flamer, Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta, Rhino
Full Tac Sqad W/Melta, Lascannon, Combi-Melta, Razorback
3x MM/HF Speeders
2x AC/HB Predators
I took this list to a tournament at the Greenwood Game Preserve. I finished last. I had bad luck with my meltas, and every scenario was primarily or secondarily determined by Kill Points. As an added bonus, my three dreadnaughts got my comp scores tanked. I did not have fun, and worked on my Eldar exclusively for a few months after that. I didn’t even want to look at my Marines. I dragged them out for one G2D4 tournament during that time. I did average. I lost my first game in that tournament against the eventual winner. It was Kill Points and another instance of killing as much or more of my opponents army, but not hitting the right KP spread.
Now there’s another G2D4 tournament on May 1st. It’s a 1750 point tournament, so I had to rethink my list a little. I decided on using Shrike with 5 Assault Terminators . This required me to drop one of my Dreadnaughts. I also added a shooty command squad to ride in my razor back. I tried the army out and had mixed results. I decided that I really need some longer ranged anti-tank, so I went back to the drawing board and this is what I came up with:
Shrike
Command squad w/ 2 melta guns, 2 power weapons, Las-Plas Razorback
5 TH/SS Terminators
2x AC/AC Dreadnaughts
2x Full Tac Squads W/Flamer, Lascannon, Combi-Melta, Rhino
5 Man Tack Squad W/Combi-Melta, Las-Plas Razorback
2x MM/HF Speeders
AC/HB Predator
The free multi meltas in my tac squads where not doing anything for me. You can’t move the rhinos and shoot them, and you don’t want the things that they need to kill to get anywhere near 12 inches of your tac squad. I could have gone with missiles, but they are only ever going to glance armor 14. That brought me back to the trusty old lascannon. I don’t have to rely on my speeders to hunt the big armor now; I can use the two razorbacks and the Rhino lascannon bunkers to threaten land raiders and lemun russ tanks earlier and with better volume of fire. Shrike and the Terminators are there to draw fire from my weaker small units. The Command squad is meant as a countercharge unit. While not very good against dedicated CC units, they can help turn back anything else that gets too close to the core of my army.
Overall this list keeps the good close range anti-tank and long range light armor busting of my old list and adds some long range anti tank and close combat problem solvers. I think it solves some of the problems my lists have had, and I have high hopes for it. Still has 15 KP though.
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